Are Electronic Cigarettes Really Safe?

[schecterc1h]

I recently stumbled upon this article by the FDA. I will address their concerns and give my personal take on them. The link to the article is FDA Warns of Health Risks Posed by E-Cigarettes

The FDA made three arguments:

1.)"e-cigarettes can increase nicotine addiction among young people and may lead kids to try other tobacco products, including conventional cigarettes, which are known to cause disease and lead to premature death"

My response: First of all, scientists have found that nicotine is not harmful to your health, just addictive. Nicotine is addictive much in the same way as caffeine. Many people find these two to effect the body in a pleasant way. Neither chemical is generally dangerous to your health in moderation, but both are addictive. What's wrong with wanting a cup or two of coffee in the morning when you need a little pick-me-up? Analogously, what's wrong with having your dose of nicotine when you need to relax the mind after a stressful situation? I don't see anything wrong with being addicted to a non-harmful substance if it offers happiness or pleasure. Second, many e-cig users hate the taste of cigarettes and don't use them after they are committed "vapers". Being drunk makes you want to smoke more, but alcohol is legal, even though it is responsible for a large percentage of DEATHS each year. Amount of deaths e-cigs have caused: ZERO

2.)"the products may contain ingredients that are known to be toxic to humans"

and

3.)"because clinical studies about the safety and efficacy of these products for their intended use have not been submitted to FDA, consumers currently have no way of knowing 1) whether e-cigarettes are safe for their intended use, or 2) about what types or concentrations of potentially harmful chemicals or what dose of nicotine they are inhaling when they use these products"

My response: Many e-liquid companies print a list of ingredients used in their liquids right on the bottle. So before you inhale anything, a responsible consumer will read this list and determine whether or not they want to ingest such a substance. The ingredients used in most e-liquids are Nicotine (the amount of nicotine per mL is listed on bottle) Propylene Glycol and/or Vegetable Glycerin (basically sugar compounds found to kill many common viruses/diseases associated with the lungs), Distilled Water, Natural and Artificial Flavors, and Citric Acid (as a preservative). The bottles also state that nicotine is an addictive and potentially harmful chemical in case of overdose, instructing the consumer to do their research.

I've noticed that people try to shut down things that they are ignorant about. Unfortunately, e-cigs are no exception.

Happy Vaping Everyone!

--Kevin

[Christopher]

Hey Kevin this is a great thread starter. I'm going to move this to the general ecig area and move you into the normal VT group so you can post there as well. Some good points.

[keenan]

I am Sooo over the FDA. I honestly am sick and tired of reading ANYTHING they write about ANYTHING, because I cant find one scintilla of truth in anything they say. Thier stance on the E Cig is so blatantly dollar motivated its pathetic. The only thing missing from thier articles is "We are being paid by Big Pharma and/or Tobacco lobbyists to say this".

[nana]

Excellent Kevin, excellent!!!

Exactly right, Keenan. They are not in the least concerned about our health, but only about their dollars. That's why they do approve all those nasty drugs...despite what they do to us or make us do...as in Chantix.

[GDub]

LOL, I feel like some kind of e-cig redneck when I read this, instead of stockpiling guns for the coming apocalypse I feel the compulsion to stockpile e-cig parts / supplies for the coming FDA ban (fingers crossed this never happens).

[SmokinHammer]

What continues to grind on me to no end is that, with all of increased taxes and bans on smoking analogs, there is no sign that tobacco cigarettes will be illegal anytime soon. The FDA (or F-Dup Administration) is apparently of the opinion that we should all smoke tobacco cigarettes, because e-cigs are dangerous. It makes my head hurt every time I think about it.

Edited January 3, 2010 by SmokinHammer

[nana]

LOL - Me, too. Except I've already started stockpiling. I have a 510 passthru, a VP/PT coming soon, a VP2, a Spade, and a 510, 4 of the 510 regular batts, 15 of the 510 attys, 4 LB 801 attys, and still have 4 high bridge 801 attys. And lots of juice. I want more attys, maybe some mega 510 batts, and more juice. Except now I'm worried about my juice getting "skunky", so don't know how far to stockpile that. LOL But I feel like I'm well on way. Just in case. But from the looks of this forum, they might be sorry if they try taking our ecigs away from us.

[Galex]

I know I'll get crucified for this, but here goes. Before I say anything else, let me say that I don't want the newborn vaping industry to have anything bad happen to it. This experience has been life-changing for me and I have no intention of stopping. I'm happy to be a human guinea pig to discover the long-term effects of vaping.

That said, I actually understand where the FDA is coming from on a couple of points. First, on the effects of vaping long-term. Simply put, we don't know. To my knowledge, nobody has been inhaling propylene glycol on a daily basis in large quantities for enough time for the long-term health effects to be understood. Sure it's used in inhalers for asthma, sure it's used as a food additive. But this is different. Think about how much you vape on a daily basis. I'm willing to be that for most of us its way more than a few puffs from an asthma inhaler on a daily basis or whatever amount you would get from eating it. And yes, there was a study done in the 1940s that showed no ill effects. In mice. For 6 months. We still don't really know what happens to humans who use this heavily over long periods of time. It may leave things that build up in some of our organs, it may do a lot of things, good or bad.

That's what the FDA is saying: they don't KNOW the effects. And unfortunately for us, that means they have to err on the side of caution. They are charged with trying as best they can to keep our food supply and pharmaceutical industries in check. So in some sense, they can't just shrug their shoulders and say 'meh, who knows if it's safe? we don't care.' No, it's not perfect. No, they aren't saints. But I for one am not unhappy they are around. If you think that there isn't a need for someone to keep these industries in check, I invite you to go live in China for a while. Yep, the FDA has completely screwed the pooch on some things and has failed to protect the public. But I like to think that they are a necessary evil. I don't trust big business any more than I trust politicians. That being said, I sure as hell hope they don't try to ban these completely, but rather try to get a study underway to understand the true health effects of this stuff.

Second, and I know that folks won't like this either, but just because a juice seller says that there's only a few ingredients doesn't mean there aren't more. Look at the melamine scare in baby formula. Add to that the toxic nature of nicotine and you have a recipe for disaster as far as the FDA is concerned. I think that regulation, while not desirable, is going to be another necessary evil.

On the 'gateway' device, I think the FDA is completely wrongheaded and stupid and is listening too much to the anti-smoking lobby, who seems hellbent on eradicating the existence of nicotine. Then there are the asshat politicians who want to look good kicking a vice industry while it's down. The argument of whether or not this will create more analog smokers is beyond ridiculous and I wish we had the financial muscle to shut the anti-smoking lobby out of the mix. But alas we don't.

I recognize that this issue affects many of you in very personal, even financial ways (for those of you who are entrepreneurs). I'm not blind to the consequences that over-regulation might have. I don't wish anyone ill or want anything bad to happen. I'm just saying that as a realist, given the realities of what the FDA is and what it's charged with doing, I can see how the current situation has come about. I don't necessarily agree with it. I don't trust bureaucrats to make the best choices. But I'm also really confident in the spirit of innovation that abounds in this new industry and I have no doubt that we'll find a way to persist somehow, some way.

You can hate my opinions all you like, all I ask is that you not hate *me* for having them. I completely understand those who are scared, angry and outraged and I'm not going to argue with anyone about that. I just think that if we understand where our opponents are coming from, we can find ways to work with (or sometimes around) them.

[mcquinn]

They would have to be safer ,but perhaps not safe.Nothing is safe you can get hurt with anything.Use some common sense and make a calculated risk assesment based on your circumstances.AS for me my Doctors told to quit using tobacco and with vaping I have,I am also reucing my nicotine addiction and hope to not be reliant on vaping.I have gone from 24 mg liquid down to 6-10 mg and hope to be 0 by the end of Jan. or Feb.

[keenan]

You can hate my opinions all you like, all I ask is that you not hate *me* for having them. I completely understand those who are scared, angry and outraged and I'm not going to argue with anyone about that. I just think that if we understand where our opponents are coming from, we can find ways to work with (or sometimes around) them.

Anyone that would hate YOU for having an opinion would have to answer to ME. And Im sure a few other members as well. I think the problem with the FDA is more credibility than sincerity. Its a hard pill to swallow ( pardon the pun ), when they tell us that we shouldnt use e cigs because of the "unknown", when they approve things like Chantix, KNOWING the side effects. THAT affects there credibility, AND sincerity, and leads EVERYONE to believe its all money motivated. I haveto wonder, if the e cig community had the $$$ and lobbyists on thier side in the quantities Big Pharma has, would they have the same stance. Galex, puhleeeze dont ever hesitate to state your opinion here.It is MUCH appreciated.

Edited January 3, 2010 by keenan

[SmokinHammer]

For the heck of it, I just googled "fda screw ups" and found this little article which I found very entertaining.

[Brian]

@ Galex - you have a great way of showing the other side of things. Nicely done.

Having said that, it still seems there could be a better way for the FDA to go about it's business.

[Galex]

@ Galex - you have a great way of showing the other side of things. Nicely done.

Having said that, it still seems there could be a better way for the FDA to go about it's business.

Thanks Brian. You'll get no argument from me about the FDA needing to clean up its act.

[Christopher]

I know I'll get crucified for this, but here goes. Before I say anything else, let me say that I don't want the newborn vaping industry to have anything bad happen to it. This experience has been life-changing for me and I have no intention of stopping. I'm happy to be a human guinea pig to discover the long-term effects of vaping.

That said, I actually understand where the FDA is coming from on a couple of points. First, on the effects of vaping long-term. Simply put, we don't know. To my knowledge, nobody has been inhaling propylene glycol on a daily basis in large quantities for enough time for the long-term health effects to be understood. Sure it's used in inhalers for asthma, sure it's used as a food additive. But this is different. Think about how much you vape on a daily basis. I'm willing to be that for most of us its way more than a few puffs from an asthma inhaler on a daily basis or whatever amount you would get from eating it. And yes, there was a study done in the 1940s that showed no ill effects. In mice. For 6 months. We still don't really know what happens to humans who use this heavily over long periods of time. It may leave things that build up in some of our organs, it may do a lot of things, good or bad.

That's what the FDA is saying: they don't KNOW the effects. And unfortunately for us, that means they have to err on the side of caution. They are charged with trying as best they can to keep our food supply and pharmaceutical industries in check. So in some sense, they can't just shrug their shoulders and say 'meh, who kno..................

Couldn't have said it better myself. Regulation will happen, it needs to happen. Let's just hope they do it in a supplier friendly way.

[Galex]

Anyone that would hate YOU for having an opinion would have to answer to ME. And Im sure a few other members as well. I think the problem with the FDA is more credibility than sincerity. Its a hard pill to swallow ( pardon the pun ), when they tell us that we shouldnt use e cigs because of the "unknown", when they approve things like Chantix, KNOWING the side effects. THAT affects there credibility, AND sincerity, and leads EVERYONE to believe its all money motivated. I haveto wonder, if the e cig community had the $$$ and lobbyists on thier side in the quantities Big Pharma has, would they have the same stance. Galex, puhleeeze dont ever hesitate to state your opinion here.It is MUCH appreciated.

Totally agree keenan, and thank you for the kind words. I could not agree more about the whole Chantrix thing making them look like dumb-asses. Not to mention phen-phen and a dozen other infractions. No one will ever catch me defending their mistakes.

[keenan]

For the heck of it, I just googled "fda screw ups" and found this little article which I found very entertaining.

That was a great article !!

[schecterc1h]

Anyone that would hate YOU for having an opinion would have to answer to ME. And Im sure a few other members as well. I think the problem with the FDA is more credibility than sincerity. Its a hard pill to swallow ( pardon the pun ), when they tell us that we shouldnt use e cigs because of the "unknown", when they approve things like Chantix, KNOWING the side effects. THAT affects there credibility, AND sincerity, and leads EVERYONE to believe its all money motivated. I haveto wonder, if the e cig community had the $$$ and lobbyists on thier side in the quantities Big Pharma has, would they have the same stance. Galex, puhleeeze dont ever hesitate to state your opinion here.It is MUCH appreciated.

I can see the points Galex made against the unknown factor of e-cigs, but like you said, Keenan, they are all about the unknown. There might be something unsafe about inhaling PG on a daily basis, but I can't see how it can be worse than inhaling over 4,000 carcinogens in the same way. I'm just saying that the FDA needs to conduct some more in-depth investigations before they make irrational decisions. It makes me wonder if their getting paid off by Phillip Morris and other large tobacco companies. Analog cigarettes should be illegal, even though I once loved them

[wright306]

The part that I don't understand is that the FDA approves the use of patches and gum, they also approved the inhalers that came out years ago as an aid for quiting. This is really no different, and most that want to quit will find it much easier to do while vaping. There is no need to break the habit (the most difficult part of quitting) you can simply lower the nicotine level, all without losing the flavor. The problem with the FDA is that they have no way to make money off it, and it doesn't benefit them in any way.

[dlynne]

I'm just saying that the FDA needs to conduct some more in-depth investigations before they make irrational decisions. It makes me wonder if their getting paid off by Phillip Morris and other large tobacco companies. Analog cigarettes should be illegal, even though I once loved them

For me, it is inconsistent to expect the FDA to make analogs illegal, yet also insist that the FDA take a hands-off approach to e-cigs. Either we are free people to make our own choices, or we are not.

I'm a lawyer who deals with a lot of government regulatory agencies, although not the FDA. I am, however, aware of how the FDA works. The FDA is like most other government regulatory agencies. It is a misconception that the FDA investigates the safety of drugs and drug delivery devices. The FDA has not done that for a long time. A very long time. (The issue of the source of hazardous food supply is a separate division.)

Before a drug or device can be "approved," the manufacturer must submit to the FDA, first, its protocal, i.e., its method of testing for safety and efficacy. After the FDA approves the methodology, the tests are conducted, and results submitted to the FDA. The FDA then will review and usually asks for additional tests concerning questions that are raised by the tests, and the cycle starts over. Eventually, if the manufacturer answers all the questions and complies with all the regulations written "in the book," the FDA has little or no discretion to disapprove the drug or device, until or unless a danger to the general public becomes known after general distribution. The FDA will also approve the written warnings or cautions a manufacturer will provide along with its product.

When a danger surfaces as to an approved drug or device, it could be that the manufacturer failed to disclose specific data from the FDA during the inital testing, and the FDA personnel did not know the right follow-up questions to ask. This is what was alleged in silicon breast implant litigation....that the manufacturers hid test results from the FDA, which disabled the FDA from knowing what follow-up questions to ask. Also, if a severe problem is only present in 1% or 2% of users, then the problem may not show up in a the sample limited number of test subjects, and will only show up when the drug is made available to the wider, general public.

When manufacturers who spend millions of dollars on regulatory compliance and preparing reports for FDA review, they have to recoup that money before they can show a profit. When an alternative and competing device/drug appears on the market, it is only natural that the manufacturer will demand that the competing manufacturer go through the same, expensive process. After all, if I need to comply with the regs before selling a nictone inhaler, why don't you need to comply before selling a personal nicotine vaporizer? This stems from nothing more than wanting a level playing field in a capitalist market. Anyone who thinks that drug companies are in business for anything other than making a profit is dreaming.

In my opinion, people should be permitted to take whatever drugs or use whatever devices they choose. After all, we are free people, in theory. However, people should also be free to decide if they want only to use "FDA approved" drugs/devices. There would be a good reason to want to use only FDA approved drugs/devices in many instances, because these things meet a least some minimum level of testing criteria. And, the FDA can have input into warning and safety instructions.

I do not want to see the FDA ban the e-cig...as far as I am concerned, the e-cig is giving me a tobacco-free life, something I did not think possible until now. Having said that, I definitely have some concerns.

As mentioned previously by someone, baby milk from China contained deadly substances, and now we are finding lethal components to dry wall from China. Much of our e-cig juice base components come from China. Yes, I do think about it. In theory, e-juice is safe, but we don't know the long term effects of inhaling e-juice. And, we don't know the purity of the juice when the base comes from a country with a history of selling contaminated substances.

As far as the equpment, I had one mod come very close to starting a fire due to a defective design and button. As it was, it burned a hole in my $2500 purse. An electrical engineer I know look at it, and said it contained a design defect and I shouldn't use it. I passed this info to the modder, and suggested that he/she at least warn people to remove the batteries from the device when not in use. To my knowledge, no such warning is being given, although the modder was very polite and offered to "fix" the device at no charge. If the devices were regulated, my bet is that this particular mod would be recalled. At the very least, some strong safety instructions would be required to be issued with the device.

I do NOT want the FDA to ban e-cigs and e-juice. But, if there was a choice between juice and equipment not approved by the FDA, and juice and equipment that obtained FDA approval, I would probably go with the FDA-approved merchandise, even though the cost would necessarily be higher.

[keenan]

OK, BEFORE anyone reads this, this turned out to be a rant. JMHO. Please dont anyone take offense. Just thoughts running out of my brain.

dlynne said

"As mentioned previously by someone, baby milk from China contained deadly substances, and now we are finding lethal components to dry wall from China. Much of our e-cig juice base components come from China. Yes, I do think about it. In theory, e-juice is safe, but we don't know the long term effects of inhaling e-juice. And, we don't know the purity of the juice when the base comes from a country with a history of selling contaminated substances."

Good point dlynne, and definitly food for thought. China's quality control does leave a lot to be desired. And, while the FDA does outsource a lot of its research, in my opinion, that does not excuse them from liability in thier decisions. They cant say "This is a safe product, go ahead and use it". and then when its proven unsafe, say " Well, we didnt do the research, someone else did". They cant have it both ways, All the power, none of the culpability. Thats what theyre doing, and thats why theyve become a joke. The hundreds of new drugs being mass produced and put on the market with KNOWN life threatening side effects is alarming. "If you experience thoughts of suicide, speak to your doctor immediatly". REALLY ? If someone is having thoughts of suicide, as the result of a drug, they are NOT going to be capable of rationally making the decision to call thier doctor ! HOW can they approve something like that unless its money motivated ? If suicidal people had that ability, there'd be a lot less suicides !

In recent weeks, my wife has had some serious health issues. Shes been in and out of the hospital 4 times in a month and a half. On her second visit, I read the side effects label on a new pill she had just started taking. She had EVERY single symptom, word for word, that was listed. I was absolutely SURE I had found the source of her problem. When the E.R. doctor came in, I immediatly took out the label, explained my findings, and handed him the paper. WITHOUT so much as taking a peek at it, he tossed it aside and said " ALL medicines have to print this stuff out to cover thier butts, thats not whats wrong with her". THATS a DIRECT quote, as the paper fell into a trash can ! So, if I believe my Doctor, the FDA is wasting a WHOLE LOT of paper printing these false warnings on meds. What, is it a mere coincidence that my wife has EVERY symptom the drug warns about. And I guess if someone commits suicide, they can say that about Chantix warnings too. "Its not real, they HAVE to print that". Now, what surprises me the most, is apparently the Doctor was RIGHT. My wife, on her own, stopped taking that pill, and shes still sick. So, it either IS a coincidence, or the effects are long lasting.

I guess the purpose of my rant is, how come they can approve these drugs with these SERIOUS side effects, KNOWN life threatening side effects, PROVEN to be harmful, but they cant even consider a device that for years has been used by thousands of people with NO serious side effects or ramifications. Not even on a trial basis. Its being villified right out of the gate. So keep using Chantix. Its safer. And we're falling for it.

Dlynne, NONE of my rant was aimed at you. Thank you for posting an intellectual, informative and well stated topic, I have been wanting to hear what an attorneys opinion on this matter would be, and I thank you for it. You brought up some VERY good points. But, IMHO, EVERY conversation I will have on the FDA, will end with, "Who are you trying to fool ?".

Rant over. I'll go to my room now.

Edited January 4, 2010 by keenan

[kitsune]

Nice Post Galex--I personally think its good to post all opinions.

One of the Problems with FDA is their lack of information and some of the misinformation that they have posted. Some of the testing done was very biased and unreliable.

Resorting to scare tactics is not the way to go.

Like you--I see the overall point with the chemicals involved. However, the FDA's version of protection is not always in our best interest. None of us can dispute that vaping is infinitely better than smoking--the FDA, does not address this. It is easier for them to say 'Vaping, bad'--give a bit of trace evidence and call it good.

Keenan--as for medications, essentially the drug companies list every possible side effect to cover their butts and if you do have a side effect they can say I told you so. that being said--medications have their uses as well. I recently went through this with a new medication I was taking--the side effect was rare and I had to dig to find it listed anywhere. If you look up a med online--you can see what side effects were actually documented and what percentage. Some side effects don't show up until thousands/millions are taking the medication. The ER dr should have taken the time to explain why he didn't think it was the medication..

Finding answers to illness is not easy and alot of trial and error.

I really hope they find an answer for your wife !!!!

Vaping is a new(ish) thing and the effects will not be known for years, however nothing else I have ever used has worked. All NRT have side effects !!!

I too love being a human guniea pig--I'm willing to take the chance. Quality control is a concern, but control will not necessarily help this. China is not the only country that has had some serious quality issues--The US is very quilty as well.

Happy Vaping !!!!!

[ddavelarsen]

This is a great thread and fantastic discussion. Schecterc1h, thanks for bringing this up; Galex and dlynne, thanks so much for your thoughtful and timely replies. I find that I agree with both of you in every facet. While I'm perfectly happy taking my chances with a relatively unknown process I recognize the risk, whoever slight, that I may have an unpleasant surprise in store down the road. I'm particularly thankful for dlynne's insight from a legal perspective. This helped to mature my view of the agency. (Though I still cannot trust them.)

Personally I fully expect FDA regulation. I've given this some thought, since I feel that my wellbeing is dependent on vaping. My expectation is that the FDA will be given jurisdiction (is that the right concept?) over nicotine, rather than simply tobacco. Nicotine is an addictive substance and as such probably 'deserves' oversight. The coffee argument is a good one however.

And I'd be much happier knowing what's in my juice at a very granular level. That's just the way I am. Possibly some importers have done a thorough analysis of their components and if so I'd like to read it. But that uncertainty is not preventing me taking what I perceive to be a much safer route to satisfying my nicotine requirement. I'm thankful beyond words for vaping and for all of the wonderful folks here. You all rock. Thanks again everyone!

[keenan]

I probably muddied up the waters with my last rant. So let me try to clear up a few things. Mainly because, well, Im bored. First and foremost, let me state that I am a TRUE patriot, who loves his country. Now, truthfully, Im not sure what the definition of a "true patriot" is, but I believe I am for the following reasons.

I have participated in every election possible since I was 18. I am now 49.

I served my country during the " Cold War ", in the U.S. Navy.

I do not believe in breaking the law because you dont agree with it, I believe you change a law you dont agree with using the process we have in place. Not a perfect system, but having travelled the world, I believe it is the best.

I accept my President, regardless of party, having achieved the office in a free democratic election.

I pay my taxes.

Now, if those things dont make me a true patriot, then I apologize. But, it makes me at LEAST a good citizen.

That being said, let me point out something else, and I dont think Im alone here.

I DO NOT, trust my Government. I FIRMLY believe I have been lied to, misled, told falsehoods, and decieved by MANY, many, many facets of our Gov't. In cases of National Security, I might understand, maybe a little, that its necessary to withhold information. But thats where it should stop.

And this, in my opinion, has grown rampant only recently, within the last 10 to 20 years or so. I sometimes think I feel like our founding fathers must have felt in 1776. They truley loved thier country, Great Britain. People forget that. But, they were lied to, misled, and misrepresented by thier King. So, they revolted. Thats the way Im beginning to feel now. My tax dollars are being used in ways I did not have any say in. Im being told that $ 20 BILLION, with a B, has been funneled into education from lottery revenue for 20 years. Thats ONE BILLION a year, in my state alone, not nationwide. BILLION ! WHY, tell me WHY are students going to classes in trailers ? Why do they lack computers in classrooms ? Why are they having car washes every weekend to raise funds ? WHY are there no music and art classes ? Thats one billion dollars OVER AND ABOVE the REGULAR taxes we pay for education !!! If you loaned me $ 500.00, and I couldnt account for what I did with it, and had NOTHING to show for it, would you loan me ANOTHER $ 500.00 ? Would you loan me $ 20.00 ? NO, you wouldnt. Then why should I be expected to trust the Gov't. with my money ? I have worked my whole life. And when I apply for assistance, a very humbling experience, embarrassed to do so, but in TRUE need of it, I am denied. While my next door nieghbor, who hasnt worked a day in his life, is approved for ALL assistance ! And walks around bragging about, and proud of the fact he's getting a , and I quote him, "FREE RIDE". I'd like 10 minutes in a room with the person or persons making THAT decision. And my story is NOT unique. This is happening in large numbers across this country to people just like me.

Thats why Ive come to completely distrust my Gov't., and thier institutions, like the FDA. I feel like its 1776 all over again.

So, I hope I cleared the waters a little with why MY opinion is the way it is, and I apologize to those who dont agree with me. Im not trying to start an argument, just get some wieght off my chest.

[kitsune]

Well said Keenan--I love your rants !!!

I agree--I love my country and those that reside within its boarders and our troops beyond our boarders. Our Government is corrupt on many levels, yet there are still many that care and try to make a difference. Just like there are those among the FDA that really want to do the right things and Those that see $$$$$.

Good people, like yourself and thousands of others, that need help and can't get it, because you don't know how to play the system...

Cant get pregnant can you(government research program maybe)????? would qualify you for all kinds of assistance and Jay Leno, Oprah, David Letterman....

I have immensely mixed feeling about liquid/nicotine control--don't trust the government to control it...but I am also leary of completely unknown products --we have honest vendors/merchants and I am certain dishonest(not found them yet thank goodness)

Worst case scenario I make my own 0 nic and wear a patch

[jmhester]

WOW! Lots of info here! From my understanding, and I could be wrong, to get FDA approval for a product, it must undergo clinical trials. I would assume those trials have to meet certian criteria as set forth by FDA regs. Now I think those trials are funded by the companies that make the product thus the fox is guarding the chicken coop. It sure seems that the FDA approve products that kill people every single day. Chantix is one of those products. So I guess since the FDA thinks that PVs come under their egis that they are going to require clinical trials and tons of payolla to allow them to be sold.

My question is about analogs and booze. Were they "grandfathered" in? Are they considered "natural" products like food suppliments (vitamins, etc.)? How can they claim nicotine is a drug and caffine is not? I'm so darn confused by all this!