Jeffb Posted November 16, 2011 Share Posted November 16, 2011 (edited) Originally Posted By Kurt, a very well known and respected chemist at ECF- Houston, we have a problem...BE nic titration results Just to bring people back up to speed with this issue, several people here suspected that their Box Elder unflavored nic was too high compared to the labeled concentration. Someone claimed to have tested that theirs was 240 mg/mL. Others stated that theirs was also strangely strong. I, on the other hand, suspected mine was just different somehow, since it had no TH and very little odor in the 100 mg VG I bought. I offered to run full titration pH-curve analysis on any nic that was sent to me, since I was interested in nic level as well as freebase/nic-salt ratio. Several sent me samples of theirs, and I am presenting the results here, after spending much of the day doing these as accurately as possible. At some point during the discussions, BE decided to send an email out to all its customers stating that it was impossible for anyone to receive >200 mg nic, and people should be assured that whatever the nic level was that was ordered, that was the nic level received. Titration curves are not difficult to obtain, but to do them accurately requires specialized glassware and electronics. In my 30 year career I have done 1000s of such titrations. What I did: I used a PASCO pH probe calibrated to within 0.001 pH points at buffer pHs of 4, 7, and 10. I also used a calibrated PASCO drop counter, allowing accuracy to within about 1/30th of a mL during the titration. I used volumetric pipets and volumetric flasks to make dilutions for the nic liquids to be titrated, and I titrated with standardized 0.0730M HCl. pH at 0 mL titrant was measured to estimate freebase/salt ratio, and pH curve was created to past the first equivalence point (2nd inflection point). Each nic sample sent to me was titrated 3 times at least, and most samples sent were enough to do another set of 3 titrations. The nic concentration was then calculated from the titrant volume at the first equivalence point, back calculating to the original sample concentration. All samples, including my own sample, were virtually all freebase form, base on initial pH and final nic content found. I will give the results in two columns. The first is the nic content as given on the label. Second column will be the nic conc as determined by the above method. Nic labeled.....Nic determined 100 mg....48 mg (This one was mine. Thanks BE.) 100 mg....120 mg 100 mg....272 mg 48 mg....78 mg 36 mg....51 mg 48 mg....59 mg 100 mg....98 mg (this was my MFS 100 mg VG) I would say the intrinsic error is less than 2% for all of these. These results are as accurate as is obtainable, IMHO. I knew the one that gave the result of 272 mg was way high when I opened it, as it was so strong in nic odor that I had to work with it in a fume hood for the dilutions. It was also honey-amber, whereas the others were either colorless or slight yellow. 272 mg nic was likely the base they diluted to 100 mg from, or else they were mistakenly sent a lot of 100 mg nic that was actually 272 mg. I don't give a rat's a$$ what their excuse is, someone could well have died from this! I am a seasoned chemist, and this liquid was seriously scary to work with. Clearly there is more concern with CYA than actually testing their nic. Had they been responsible and expressed concern and actually tested their nic, this might have been avoided, but they instead chose to lie and even condescend as to how ridiculous the idea of levels being sold wrong was, and how oh so professional they are. For this community, this is about as bad as it can get. I strongly recommend Box Elder be banned from ECF, and the word should be spread to other ecig forums. The FDA would have a field day with this. If others want their nic analyzed, PM me. Vendors, you are now on notice. Either self-regulate and KNOW what you are selling, quantitatively, or else you are putting people, as well as the industry itself, in grave danger. I have no problem buying small quantities of unflavored nic solely for testing purposes. You have been warned. I am seriously outraged by this. Last edited by Kurt; Today at 08:21 PM. Please post any other info on the subject that you come across. Edited November 16, 2011 by jeffb soso 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Viper Ron Posted November 16, 2011 Share Posted November 16, 2011 Wow!! How scary is this!! Is it any good to have your juice at a lower nic level? I have trimmed mine down to 6mg on all of my orders. Thanks for the info this is serious business! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Uma Posted November 16, 2011 Share Posted November 16, 2011 It's a good thing the Vaping communities and DIY'ers are always on the ball. This is awful. In fact, it's so ridiculous, I can't help but picture some ANTZ behind the managerial wheels. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jeffb Posted November 16, 2011 Author Share Posted November 16, 2011 I read that Box Elder, Gourmet Vapors & Honeville are all owned by the same guy. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DAYVAPE Posted November 16, 2011 Share Posted November 16, 2011 This, my friends, is not a good thing. The FDA will most certainly have a field day with this one!! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brian Posted November 17, 2011 Share Posted November 17, 2011 Certainly scary and dangerous. I didn't get to watch, but the owner was on VTV last night. I'll try to watch it this weekend. Here are the links to the show on Stickam (3 parts): http://www.stickam.com/viewMedia.do?mId=192429107 http://www.stickam.com/viewMedia.do?mId=192429350 http://www.stickam.com/viewMedia.do?mId=192429534 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mcquinn Posted November 17, 2011 Share Posted November 17, 2011 I keep having images of people mixing this stuff in thier basements or garages .I think I will stick with my Dekang liquid,priced right,consistant and that factory is very state of the art. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jeffb Posted November 17, 2011 Author Share Posted November 17, 2011 I think it would be a good idea for the USA juice suppliers to disclose where they get their nic from. kitsune 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jeffb Posted November 17, 2011 Author Share Posted November 17, 2011 This is the email BE is sending out... Hello Everyone, Due to recent independent titration analyses we have decided to reveal our own internal methods of testing and quality control as well as our own independent analysis of liquids that have been diluted before they have arrived at our distribution facility. As I have stated before, we dilute pure nicotine down to just over 10% strength before it arrives at our distribution facility. At that point we have an independent GC/MS done to give us an accurate reading of the product ingredients and strengths. The diluted product comes in at about 11 to 13% in strength. We then we do a final adjustment to bring the product to an actual 10% strength. The reason for this is "if the product were to come in weaker than the target 10%", we would have no way of increasing the strength due to the fact that we only work with 10% strength or lower in the distribution facility. We admit that mistakes could be made in labeling which could result in a product labeled as 48 mg/ml strength and actually be 100 mg/ml. Even a mistake like this could be dangerous and if we have made this type of mistake then all we could do is offer our humblest apologies and / or a replacement product. A product that is testing at at 272 mg/ml and labeled at 100 mg/ml is more than dangerous, it could be deadly. In all of our analyses (internal or independent) over the last two years we have never received a diluted batch for testing that was over 14%. We test every diluted batch and we will now post the latest independent tests online every time a new batch is run. For clarity we will label each independent test that will match a lot number on every bottle that goes out. Furthermore on some occasions we may run out of nicotine during a big sale at which point we may use products from other US vendors. Due to this we will also be posting random independent tests on other US vendors as well. Please look for our current independent GC/MS reports at http://www.boxelderchemicalsupply.com/110811pgtest.pdf With that being said, we feel that this issue is starting to appear more like a smear campaign against our company and less like a valid scientific exploration of the products we all use and vape. We appreciate the support from all of our customers and assure you all that we are extremely confident in our own internal safety procedures as well as the credibility of our independent testing labs and the quality of US vendors that we may utilize from time to time. So confident that I am willing to sign my name to this message and not hide behind an obscure username on a forum or the posting of a forum user that has never returned to respond to an original post. Due to the fact that an unscrupulous company or individual could easily take our labeled product and increase or decrease the strength in an effort to disparage our hard earned name and reputation, we will be converting to a tamper resistant bottle for all of our nicotine products and we will only be responding to forum posted tests from credible laboratory testing facilities that will verify that they received what appears to be an un-opened un-tampered bottle of our product. We will not be responding to chemistry students who possibly are on the correct and intelligent path towards testing a given substance but who may also be unknowingly party to the destruction of one company for the benefit of another. We realize that there are many issues associated with this business and we want to do our part to provide a new level of transparency to this whole industry. Sincerely, Brad Bacher www.boxelderchemicalsupply.com 888-962-5877 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jeffb Posted November 17, 2011 Author Share Posted November 17, 2011 Certainly scary and dangerous. I didn't get to watch, but the owner was on VTV last night. I'll try to watch it this weekend. Here are the links to the show on Stickam (3 parts): http://www.stickam.c...o?mId=192429107 http://www.stickam.c...o?mId=192429350 http://www.stickam.c...o?mId=192429534 I found it concerning that Brad is a advertiser on VTV and some of the VTV staff was defending him and at times berating those in chat. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BirdDog Posted November 17, 2011 Share Posted November 17, 2011 I found it concerning that Brad is a advertiser on VTV and some of the VTV staff was defending him and at times berating those in chat. There was a post today, somewhere in the vaping community, that Gourmet Vapor advertising has been dropped from VTV. Uma 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Christopher Posted November 17, 2011 Share Posted November 17, 2011 There was a post today, somewhere in the vaping community, that Gourmet Vapor advertising has been dropped from VTV. Interesting. I'd hate to be in Gourmet Vapers shoes, he seems like a good guy, but ultimately this is a serious screw up. Self regulation is what many asked for and it's what's going to get this whole damn thing shut down. The more time goes on the more forced regulation sounds like a good idea. 256mg mislabeled? Not good. Not good at all. If that was in say a 30ml bottle that's 7680mg of nicotine total! That amount of liquid could kill a grown adult. Consumers/DIY'ers rely on the delicate trust of a supplier. What if it had been 300mg, 400mg? From the video it appears a few people ended up in the hospital. I don't know who labeled the bottles, but you can bet I'd be kicking someones *** up and down the hallway. DAYVAPE 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Uma Posted November 17, 2011 Share Posted November 17, 2011 Can someone contact our missing little dragon, Kitsune? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mjradik Posted November 18, 2011 Share Posted November 18, 2011 I've been away from the fourms for a few days, and just saw this today. I received a mislabeled 60mg nic bottle 3+ months ago from a trusted supplier. (it actually tested to be 100mg) It was a one time mistake (from what I'm aware of) on thier part and hasen't happened since. However, I ever since then, I've been preaching DIY nicotine testing, because you never know...Better safe than sorry. Thats why I started www.eliquidtest.com. You know I was wondering what was up, when I average one or two sales a day for the past three months, and all of a sudden I got 50 orders in the past 2 days... lol... my stock was depleated instantly. I''' be restocked tomorrow though) And its good to know that nic/juice suppliers that I've seen on this website buy the kit too. (however, shouldn't they have been doing more scientific/accurate testing in the first place?) At least this one big bad incident will make the vaping community a safer and more self regulated place though going foward. Uma and Christopher 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jeffb Posted November 18, 2011 Author Share Posted November 18, 2011 Brad from Box Elder most recent e-mail: Due to recent events, we want to offer an Unlimited Satisfaction Guarantee for all of our products from Box Elder Chemical Supply. If any of our customers are dissatisfied with any of our products regardless of when they were purchased we will offer a full refund, including the cost of return shipping to us. We realize the importance and nature of the products that we sell and we want to assure the community that we are continually striving for transparency and accuracy in our own business operations as well as this industry as a whole. We do ask that before you ship a product back to us that you contact us at customerservice@boxelderchemicalsupply.com or call 888-962-5877. Please have the date of purchase or the order ID number and we will be more than willing to issue a Return Merchandise Authorization Number. We also ask that if you return a product to us that you do so via the US Postal Service and that you send the product via Flat Rate Priority Mail to my personal address: Brad Bacher 1170 Sycamore Dr. Brigham City, Utah 84302 Any refunds will be issued within 24 hours of the date of an arrival of product back to our facility. We apologize for any mistakes that could have been made and we can only extend our promise to improve the quality of our products and performance of our duties to our community of friends and customers. Sincerely, Brad Bacher www.boxelderchemicalsupply.com Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Burn Posted November 18, 2011 Share Posted November 18, 2011 Very Scary, I have been DIY for coming up on 2 years and I feel naive that I never really thought enough about this to expect this to happen but it was likely inevitable. I have had a negative opinion about Gourmet Vapor but it had nothing to do with nic levels, I just thought it tasted terrible. I am grateful I found MFS and their nic performs the way I expect it to. However, regulation is desperately needed and I always believed it has have been. I listened to the interview that Brian linked and the owner of Box Elder spends too much time saying "I am a CEO" than actually addressing that there could be a problem.When the host asks a question, listen to the response and ask yourself if he answered the question. IMO? Glad you asked. Shady, Shady, Shady. Uma 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Christopher Posted November 18, 2011 Share Posted November 18, 2011 I was thinking the same thing while listening to the interview. Being a CEO has nothing to do with the quality of your products or what went wrong. What's more important is how you plan to prevent this for happening or better yet how this happened in the first place. Are there MSDS sheets in the office, are there written SOP's in place for employees. You can't really fault them if they're not aware of the procedures. Employees should have hands on training followed by readily available documentation should they need a refresh. Employees should be reviewed and monitored closely especially when chemicals that are being ingested into someones lungs are involved. When you mess up a bad batch of cookies at your local bakery, you get bad tasting cookies. When you mess up a batch of e liquid, especially when the chemical mixture is as high as double the base labeled dosage - Someone gets sick. Very sick. At the very least I hope other DIY and American e Liquid suppliers learn from this. I wouldn't want to see a habit made out of this. Uma, Burn and kitsune 3 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gamera Posted November 19, 2011 Share Posted November 19, 2011 These companies don't do batch testing on their formulations? One would think think that they need COA's on all of their product before it goes out. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Christopher Posted November 19, 2011 Share Posted November 19, 2011 These companies don't do batch testing on their formulations? One would think think that they need COA's on all of their product before it goes out. You would think so but apparently not. You know I was thinking about something in the car today while driving home. The excuse was that the bottles where mis labeled. Not a good excuse but fine, fair enough. But here is what I was thinking...One of the 100mg bottles actually had 272mg of nicotine. So, one would assume if it was labeled incorrectly the bottle should have had a 272mg label correct? Here's the thing...they don't sell 272mg on their site. Which means they probably don't have a 272mg label. How can you mislabel a bottle of 272mg when you don't actually sell that strength. Now if perhaps they get 300mg wholesale and cut it down, that means someone is doing a really crappy job. IE They have no idea what they're doing. Batch testing should be done and obviously it's not. I'm not trying to smear his company but I can't help but think just how bad this could have been. It's worrying for the consumer. DIY won't be around very long at this rate. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BirdDog Posted November 19, 2011 Share Posted November 19, 2011 What this all boils down to is quality control. Mr. CEO is sitting in his office counting his money while his workers are not paying attention or just don't care. If this were a pharmaceutical company, mislabeling a bottle, there would be hell to pay. The FDA would probably swoop in and hand them a hefty fine and not to mention the possible lawsuits that would follow. Mr. CEO needs to get off his chair and spend some time in his production room. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Christopher Posted November 19, 2011 Share Posted November 19, 2011 What this all boils down to is quality control. Mr. CEO is sitting in his office counting his money while his workers are not paying attention or just don't care. If this were a pharmaceutical company, mislabeling a bottle, there would be hell to pay. The FDA would probably swoop in and hand them a hefty fine and not to mention the possible lawsuits that would follow. Mr. CEO needs to get off his chair and spend some time in his production room. No doubt. If the industry was under regulation, he'd have been shutdown for inspection along with those hefty fines. It's tough to promote self regulation with situations like this. I'm not trying to put down DIY but honestly it's just dangerous. On the flip side I'm glad to see Nicotine testing kits made available to consumers. It really puts the checks and balances back in place. I'm hoping the DIY'ers make this a part of their mixing kits. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brian Posted November 19, 2011 Share Posted November 19, 2011 The human factor in nic mixing as well as home made juice suppliers has always scared me. It's just to easy to make a mistake. I don't know how many times I've been DIYing and at the blink of an eye have a brain fart and forget what I've already put in the bottle. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Erika Posted November 19, 2011 Share Posted November 19, 2011 I'm so glad i saw this. This is the company i order my liquid from. well, it was. not any more. thanks for the heads up Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mjradik Posted November 20, 2011 Share Posted November 20, 2011 .... I'm not trying to put down DIY but honestly it's just dangerous. Especially If you don't know what you are doing. But heres the Thing. Alot of suppliers, especially the 'joe-blow making ejuice for sale on the internet from his kitchen' buy from BE for thier juice. So if they got bad nic, so did all of thier customers that are not DIY. I've read on other forums about alot of people 'questioned' thier pre-made juice from different suppliers over the past 2 months.. scarry. But at least a customer who 'questions' thier juice should be smart enough to stop vaping before it goes to far.. DIYrs might be think they are working with 50 mg, and take no special precautions, but really it150 or so.. One bad mistake/spill on skin, not enough ventiliation, etc... that is easily lethal. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Strykker118A Posted November 20, 2011 Share Posted November 20, 2011 Hope this isnt one of them "one idiot screws everything up for the rest of us" kind of situations. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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